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gmat.acer
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Re: just as .... so

by gmat.acer Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:26 am

RonPurewal wrote:
Selvae wrote:just as .... so is idiomatic in C


yes.

just memorize this as a 2-piece parallelism signal. unlike most parallelism signals, though, it requires an independent clause after each part (a relatively unusual construction).

i've always hated this construction, because the more concise "just as ... [nothing] ..." - i.e., the same construction, without the "so" - is also idiomatic. therefore, the "so", in my opinion, is pointlessly wordy, unless it relieves the sentence of some ambiguity.

note that (b), which ostensibly uses the more concise construction, is ungrammatical: "an archaeologist who needs a background in art history to evaluate finds of ancient art" is a sentence fragment. it's a subject + modifier, and doesn't have a verb.


[I highlighted "is ungrammatical" above]

Is (B) ungrammatical because it is not logically parallel?
I understand that "an archaeologist who ... ancient art" is a sentence fragment. But I believe the entire sentence ("Just as an archaeologist who ...ancient art, a nautical archaeologist ... understand shipwrecks") as such is a complete sentence and not a fragment. So why is (B) ungrammatical? is it because it is not parallel?

I believe "As" can act as a preposition, in which it is followed by a noun rather than a clause. For example,
- As a child, I thought I could fly. Or
- As your leader, I am in charge.
Can we treat the use of "as" in (B) as preposition mentioned in above examples?
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Re: just as .... so

by RonPurewal Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:58 am

gmat.acer wrote:Is (B) ungrammatical because it is not logically parallel?
I understand that "an archaeologist who ... ancient art" is a sentence fragment. But I believe the entire sentence ("Just as an archaeologist who ...ancient art, a nautical archaeologist ... understand shipwrecks") as such is a complete sentence and not a fragment. So why is (B) ungrammatical? is it because it is not parallel?


no.
if "as" is used to make a comparison or to draw an analogy, then it must be followed by a complete clause.

the structure "just as... so..." always draws a comparison/analogy, so a complete clause, with its own subject and verb, will always be required after "just as" in this structure.

I believe "As" can act as a preposition, in which it is followed by a noun rather than a clause. For example,
- As a child, I thought I could fly. Or
- As your leader, I am in charge.
Can we treat the use of "as" in (B) as preposition mentioned in above examples?


no; those constructions have a fundamentally different meaning. note that they are not comparisons or analogies. (your question "Can we treat the use ..." is a little bit worrisome, because it suggests that you believe that the meaning of the sentence has no importance at all -- i.e., you are suggesting a change in interpretation that will completely change the meaning of the entire sentence, and you don't seem to see why that would be a problem.)

also, you can't use "just" in a construction like that. try it; you'll see that it doesn't work.
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by gmat.acer Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:33 pm

Got it!
I neglected the word "just" in (B) and thought we can treat "as ..." and "just as..." in similar ways. Now I understand that they are quite different - just how much a difference the word "just" can make.

Thanks for clarifying it Ron. You rock!
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by gmat.acer Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:07 am

One more follow up question -
You mentioned that :
"if "as" is used to make a comparison or to draw an analogy, then it must be followed by a complete clause."

In the SC strategy guide I came across following example:
- As in the previous case, the judge took an early break.

Here 'as' is not followed by a clause. It is followed by the phrase 'in the previous case'. How this is so?
Isn't in this sentence 'as' is used to make a comparison of judge's action between the previous case and the current case?
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by RonPurewal Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:49 am

gmat.acer wrote:One more follow up question -
You mentioned that :
"if "as" is used to make a comparison or to draw an analogy, then it must be followed by a complete clause."

In the SC strategy guide I came across following example:
- As in the previous case, the judge took an early break.

Here 'as' is not followed by a clause. It is followed by the phrase 'in the previous case'. How this is so?
Isn't in this sentence 'as' is used to make a comparison of judge's action between the previous case and the current case?


this is a correct observation. in this kind of situation, "as" may be followed either by a clause or by a prepositional phrase.
if our materials don't mention the possibility of a prepositional phrase, then they definitely should; i will inform the appropriate editors so that they can include that fact in the next editions.
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by deepthpk Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:49 pm

Hi,
Suppose we use like instead of as in choice B,does it become correct?

b)Just as an archaeologist who needs a background in art history to evaluate finds of ancient art, a

to

b)Just like an archaeologist who needs a background in art history to evaluate finds of ancient art, a

We are comparing two nouns here after using like..so archaeologist is compared to nautical archaeologist..
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by RonPurewal Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:48 pm

deepthpk wrote:Hi,
Suppose we use like instead of as in choice B,does it become correct?

b)Just as an archaeologist who needs a background in art history to evaluate finds of ancient art, a

to

b)Just like an archaeologist who needs a background in art history to evaluate finds of ancient art, a

We are comparing two nouns here after using like..so archaeologist is compared to nautical archaeologist..


nope, still wrong.
if you write "Like A, [modifiers], B must xxxxx", then the meaning is that both A and B must xxxx.

e.g.
Like professional athletes who need extra flexibility, physical-therapy patients often take dance lessons.
--> this sentence implies that professional athletes and PT patients take dance lessons.

thus, your new version is not sensible, because the art person doesn't need to know about ships.
(by the way, this is the exact reason why the more bulky "(Just) as..." construction even exists in the first place -- because "like" can't draw an analogy between two different things. if you could do that with "like", then the "as" construction most likely wouldn't even exist in the language, because there'd be no need for it.)
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by deepthpk Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:48 am

Yes.. I got it! Thanks!
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by tim Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:27 am

Cool :)
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by lindaliu9273 Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:58 pm

Hi Ron,

For A/D,
Is Just like A, B or like A, so B do correct?
Can you talk a little about the use of "like" as a sign of parallel?

Thank you!
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by RonPurewal Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:54 am

lindaliu9273 wrote:Is Just like A, B or like A, so B do correct?


I've never seen "just like" in a correct sentence from GMAC. Thus, if you are given a choice between "just like" and "like", go with the latter.
(I don't think GMAC has ever declared it incorrect, either.)

The second of these doesn't make sense.
The whole point of "Just as ___, so ___" is for the two ___'s to describe actions that are analogous, but different.
E.g.,
Just as an athlete can sometimes improve his or her performance by taking a rest from training, (so) a GMAT student can often make gains by taking a week or two away from studying.

The two actions"”taking time off training and taking time off studying"”are analogous, but not the same.

In the structure "Like X, Y ____", the point is that both X and Y do "____". There's no second action for "so" to introduce.
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by RonPurewal Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:55 am

Can you talk a little about the use of "like" as a sign of parallel?


There's already a lot of information on "like" in this thread. (The basics are in the SC strategy guide.)

Beyond that, I really don't know what you're asking for. So, you'll need to ask a more specific question.
Thanks.
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by lindaliu9273 Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:26 pm

RonPurewal wrote:
lindaliu9273 wrote:Is Just like A, B or like A, so B do correct?


I've never seen "just like" in a correct sentence from GMAC. Thus, if you are given a choice between "just like" and "like", go with the latter.
(I don't think GMAC has ever declared it incorrect, either.)

The second of these doesn't make sense.
The whole point of "Just as ___, so ___" is for the two ___'s to describe actions that are analogous, but different.
E.g.,
Just as an athlete can sometimes improve his or her performance by taking a rest from training, (so) a GMAT student can often make gains by taking a week or two away from studying.

The two actions"”taking time off training and taking time off studying"”are analogous, but not the same.

In the structure "Like X, Y ____", the point is that both X and Y do "____". There's no second action for "so" to introduce.


Thank you so much! It helps a lot.
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by RonPurewal Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:53 pm

You're welcome.
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Re: Just like the background in art history . . .

by ErikM442 Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:59 pm

I still don't really understand why the "who" makes it a sentence fragment. We do have a verb? who needs x to evaluate. What else would be needed to make this clause a not-sentence fragment?