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Q12 Rule Substitution

by pmngo92 Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:38 pm

Can anyone explain to me how to get to B? Thanks in advance.
 
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Re: Q12 Rule Substitution

by Antnat Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:20 am

I approached this game by drawing out the frames first. With all the conditions, you can pretty much get down to 4 frames.

T R Q V S
S R Q V T
R (Q/S) V (Q/S) T
(Q/S) R V (Q/S) T

It's hard to tell immediately since the frames I drew above aren't properly aligned, but you will see that V only goes in the 3rd spot or the 4th spot. Moreover, when it is in the 4th spot, Q must be in the 3rd spot. Thus, if you say that R must come before V (which is technically saying that it must be before the 3rd spot), then it guarantees that R will be in either 1 or 2.

I hope it helps!
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Re: Q12 Rule Substitution

by maryadkins Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:06 am

These rule equivalency questions are often tricky.

Thank you for that fantastic explanation Antnat!

Framing probably the best way to go on this game. In the meantime, say you hadn't framed. How might you go about this?

Here's how I approached the answer choices:

(A) This looks okay, because it can't be shown 3rd already, so we're now down to 1, 2 and 5. But how do we get rid of 5? Looking for a better one.

(B) If Valencia is 3rd it works out that R must be 1 or 2. What about if V is elsewhere, though? Well, V cannot be 2nd (would force Q and S next to each other). If V is fourth, it works out that R is 1 or 2, so that would be fine. V cannot be 5th because it forces Q and S together. This is the answer.

(C) does not restrict R to slots 1 or 2.

(D) can be ruled out for me by previous work on Question 11, in which I determined that RSVQT is a possible ordering.

(E) would possibly allow R to go in 4, which is a problem.

Where possible on these, I always use previous work to knock out answer choices. Since you're looking for a rule that has the same effect as another one in your game, in any diagrams where you've drawn in something that contradicts a suggested rule, it can't be the answer! That only helped me on (D) for this question, though, which is why it turns out framing was the most efficient way to do this game.
 
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Re: Q12 Rule Substitution

by crf2132 Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:42 am

I'm confused on how (C) does not allow "R'' to be in slot one.

Couldn't it still be R, (Q/S), V, (Q/S), T? It's just that without our initial constraint that R must be first or second, hypothetically the T and R could switch? I jumped on this answer choice too quickly I think because it looked true that V always in third or fourth, but it seems that leaves room for R to be first or fifth in a scenario.
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Re: Q12 Rule Substitution

by maryadkins Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:59 pm

Yes, thank you for catching that! I will now change the explanation accordingly.
 
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Re: Q12 Rule Substitution

by camillebachrach Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:05 pm

For the answer B, though--couldn't it be T S V R Q if V was 3rd?
if there wasn't the rule that R had to be 1 or 2?
this still goes with all the rules -- T is 1st, V is 3rd and Q and S aren't next to each other. This is the exception i made and why i didn't pick B but i can't figure out why it's wrong? thanks!
 
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Re: Q12 Rule Substitution

by stemmastery Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:43 pm

camillebachrach wrote:For the answer B, though--couldn't it be T S V R Q if V was 3rd?
if there wasn't the rule that R had to be 1 or 2?
this still goes with all the rules -- T is 1st, V is 3rd and Q and S aren't next to each other. This is the exception i made and why i didn't pick B but i can't figure out why it's wrong? thanks!


Did you have T S V R Q as one of your original frames? If so, that was a mistake. The way to think about this is that with the new substitution rule you must end up drawing the exact same frames as you did with the original rules.

The substitution rule for B gives R-V (V must follow R). The frame you have, T S V R Q, breaks this rule (it's backward), so try drawing your frames again and see what you get when you add R-V.
 
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Re: Q12 Rule Substitution

by danr883 Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:02 pm

For B. Keep R1 or R2 and try to falsify R before V. Only need to think about VRQST, and this is disallowed. Now, keep R before V and try to falsify R1 or R2. Only need to think about R4 and V5: TSQRV and this is not allowed. Since we cannot falsify in either direction, we have old implies new, and new implies old. B is the answer. All other choices can be falsified in one or both directions. No frames or inferences needed!